Piracy

What does everyone think of attaining illegal copies of music, games, other software, movies, etc? Is it different (morally) to stealing a loaf of bread? Why? Is it wrong, but because it's so easy to do and so hard to get caught, you do it anyway?

Discuss.

I have a Parrot , Eye Patch and a Peg leg
does that make me a Pirate????

No, that makes you a freak.

*points*

Oh ok
Im crushed

It's ok, you can still be a pirate - just make use of or copy someone's work without their authorisation



Anyway... thoughts?

is this sumthing your planning on forwarding to the police and thus convicting all pirates?

Speaking of pirates, tomorrow, September 19th, is International Talk Like A Pirate Day.



More info here

aren't one and two in the poll, the exact same points?

QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 01:30 AM)

aren't one and two in the poll, the exact same points?

no, one is you think its wrong but do it, and the other is you dont think its wrong and you do it.

ok, i c...

i think it depends on how u look at it...

movie producers still get the dosh they deserve for making it, cos they sell the righs to watch the movie to a cinema, or production or whatever they call it. then the people who baught the rights or whatever, try to make more money buy sellin them coppies tot the public...

I dunno, music I think it's good to sample the music and to chill to /listen in the car it's ok, it's the same as radio really only u get to choose what u listen to, and without comercials... If u copy a whole CD, i think it could be clissified as wrong, but then again, u don't get the same satisfaction of having the real thing.

When I buy a CD i burn it, so the real one doesn't get damaged... If I baught a CD, burnt it, and lost the origional, i'd be pissed off, but i'd still keep the burnt copy...

I think I'm just dribbling shit now, so I'll shut up and stuff...

is it illegal to back up cds or games or whatever?

i heard sumwhere that it wasnt as long as u dont lend them or sumthing like that

You can make a backup copy for yourself as long as you don't hand it out n all that.

so what if u make a'legal' backup and u 'misplace' the original copy or the backup copy?

QUOTE (Shan @ Sep 18 2004, 01:45 AM)

You can make a backup copy for yourself as long as you don't hand it out n all that.

That is an American right not an Australian one, you are not allowed to make any copies in Australia, not even backups!

QUOTE (ballby @ Sep 18 2004, 01:54 AM)

QUOTE (Shan @ Sep 18 2004, 01:45 AM) You can make a backup copy for yourself as long as you don't hand it out n all that. That is an American right not an Australian one, you are not allowed to make any copies in Australia, not even backups!

Ah fuck. oh well!

QUOTE (ballby @ Sep 18 2004, 01:54 AM)

QUOTE (Shan @ Sep 18 2004, 01:45 AM) You can make a backup copy for yourself as long as you don't hand it out n all that. That is an American right not an Australian one, you are not allowed to make any copies in Australia, not even backups!

so why the heck do they have CD burners? and DVD recorders?

backing up i think is perfectly legal, and if someone steals your backup, they're the pirate not u...

If u willingly give and they take, i don't think it's your responsibilty if they don't give back, cos they made the conscious descion to want the pirated copy?

QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 01:57 AM)

QUOTE (ballby @ Sep 18 2004, 01:54 AM) QUOTE (Shan @ Sep 18 2004, 01:45 AM) You can make a backup copy for yourself as long as you don't hand it out n all that. That is an American right not an Australian one, you are not allowed to make any copies in Australia, not even backups! so why the heck do they have CD burners? and DVD recorders?

There are plenty of legitimate uses of cd/dvd burners.

QUOTE

If u willingly give and they take, i don't think it's your responsibilty if they don't give back, cos they made the conscious descion to want the pirated copy?

It's not your responsibility if they don't give it back. But that's not the point. The point is that you gave them a copy in the first place

what making ilegal backups of your own work? :P

just get an extra hard drive and a USB, problem solved...

for peronal files etc, u wouldn't need more than a gig anyway... Plus CD's don't even hold a gig.

QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 02:03 AM)

what making ilegal backups of your own work? :P

You mean legal, right?

QUOTE

just get an extra hard drive and a USB, problem solved...

For some people burning data onto cds is more convenient... but anyway we're digressing...

cd burners were out a long time before usb drives came along (in computer times) and at that stage it was the quickest and most convenient way to transfer large files

Sorry, i wasn't completely right.


According to Michael Argy, intellectual property group lawyer at Australian law firm Gilbert and Tobin, the law is clear.

He says copyright law only allows consumers to make a single backup of computer software for personal use and any copying of music CDs or movie DVDs by consumers is illegal.


The full article is here

QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 01:40 AM)

I dunno, music I think it's good to sample the music and to chill to /listen in the car it's ok, it's the same as radio really only u get to choose what u listen to, and without comercials...

I don't think it's the same at all. I think (generally) the point of having songs aired on radio is to try to encourage you go out and buy the product.

Hmmm yeah I do think it is wrong but the flip side of that is look at the amount of money some big artists make, thats pretty wrong too when all they do is look pretty

As to software... I don't have a problem 'evaluating' some software, I mean if I wasn't going to buy the software anyway then I'm not costing the creators any money. If I really need a program I would probably look at buying it.

QUOTE (Aaron @ Sep 18 2004, 02:10 AM)

QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 01:40 AM) I dunno, music I think it's good to sample the music and to chill to /listen in the car it's ok, it's the same as radio really only u get to choose what u listen to, and without comercials... I don't think it's the same at all. I think (generally) the point of having songs aired on radio is to try to encourage you go out and buy the product.

yeah, but if u make a compilation CD to your likings whats wrong with that? It's all just a whole bunch of single songs. If i like a band enough i will support them by buyin a CD, but if the CD is a waste of money, why not D/L the track cos it's the only way your gonna get it?

Plus whats all this stuff about the legal download sites? how can an investigator tell if u paid for it over the net or not? e-reciepts are easily forged...

QUOTE (muffins @ Sep 18 2004, 02:22 AM)

Hmmm yeah I do think it is wrong but the flip side of that is look at the amount of money some big artists make, thats pretty wrong too when all they do is look pretty As to software... I don't have a problem 'evaluating' some software, I mean if I wasn't going to buy the software anyway then I'm not costing the creators any money. If I really need a program I would probably look at buying it.

unless the program is ridiculously priced for the average user, IE, at about $2000 for some programs? How is that justified? for software?

QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 02:24 AM)

QUOTE (Aaron @ Sep 18 2004, 02:10 AM) QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 01:40 AM) I dunno, music I think it's good to sample the music and to chill to /listen in the car it's ok, it's the same as radio really only u get to choose what u listen to, and without comercials... I don't think it's the same at all. I think (generally) the point of having songs aired on radio is to try to encourage you go out and buy the product. yeah, but if u make a compilation CD to your likings whats wrong with that? It's all just a whole bunch of single songs. If i like a band enough i will support them by buyin a CD, but if the CD is a waste of money, why not D/L the track cos it's the only way your gonna get it?

Because you're getting something for nothing, whereas the artists has put in the time, money and effort to produce the music you now have in your possession.

QUOTE

Plus whats all this stuff about the legal download sites? how can an investigator tell if u paid for it over the net or not?  e-reciepts are easily forged...

I was hoping to discuss the morality of piracy, not it's legality

QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 02:25 AM)

unless the program is ridiculously priced for the average user, IE, at about $2000 for some programs?  How is that justified? for software?

That's like saying "this ferrari is too expensive for the average consumer so it's ok to steal it".

If software is overpriced then don't buy it, but also don't steal it...
Let the competition bring the prices down if they are indeed unjustifiably high.

hmm, well having a sample CD from them, is the same thing then?

One track man, if they made ONE good track, and the rest are noisy peices of shit that hurt the ears, why would any man spend 30 bucks to listen to nothing but one track of the CD, esp if they didn't release a single CD? Would you?

I'm not sayin for or against, i'm just presenting the options... Morily, is it right for the producers/ middle men, to give so little, and ask SO much in return...

My mates band, he doesn't get shit all money for every CD they sell, it's somethin like 70c per CD, and the producers sell them for 25. Thats like a $20 increase after production costs etc...

I was thinking about music piracy the other day, it kinda ocurred to me that maybe the increase of availability of pirated music balances out the increased ease of making music with software these days. If people have a chance to listen before they buy something, and then actually follow through and buy a legal copy if its good, then more talented artists will benefit in the long run which equals more creativity in the industry... it really depends on how many people make a point of buying something to support the artist.

QUOTE (Aaron @ Sep 18 2004, 02:38 AM)

QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 02:25 AM) unless the program is ridiculously priced for the average user, IE, at about $2000 for some programs?  How is that justified? for software? That's like saying "this ferrari is too expensive for the average consumer so it's ok to steal it". If software is overpriced then don't buy it, but also don't steal it... Let the competition bring the prices down if they are indeed unjustifiably high.

the reason they are priced high, is because they are designed for professional companies or orginisations, intended to be kept away from the little man, so if the little man gets it, they're not really loosing out, cos the big men still buy it. So what harm is it if the little man has it, not like he's gonna do much more than just play around with the software... if the littleman however makes money out of it, then thats wrong.

QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 02:39 AM)

One track man, if they made ONE good track, and the rest are noisy peices of shit that hurt the ears, why would any man spend 30 bucks to listen to nothing but one track of the CD, esp if they didn't release a single CD? Would you?

Of course I wouldn't, but that still doesn't justify stealing the one track. If the artist doesn't release the track you want as a single, oh well - your loss, but theirs too.

QUOTE

I'm not sayin for or against, i'm just presenting the options...  Morily, is it right for the producers/ middle men, to give so little, and ask SO much in return...

Of course it is. If the product is not worth the money then people won't buy it and they lose out. They don't have a responsibility to release products that the consumer will be satisfied with, but if they don't, they're not going to be in business for long are they...

but
- pirate software is a hundred times more accessible than stolen ferraris
- pirate software does not come with the same ramifications at this stage, should you be caught (this is changing rapidly though isnt it?)
- the risk of being caught in the first place is so much lower

not that that really covers morality haha, but it sort of goes to show why piracy is seen as more "ok" by so many people

its obviously morally wrong

Maybe "open source" music is just a natural progression. Yes artists will no longer be able to make one catchy pop tune that is questionable on originality, but backed by a multimillion dollar advertising deal - then retire to B grade star oblivion with money to waste on "finding themselves".

Recorded music is only a new development in music history. Music has been apart of the development of humanity! Who are we to put a price on sound! Surely the more diverse and plentiful the listening audience, the greater the potential fan base. Yes people potentially not get credit where credit is due, but hopefully true talent would stand alone in any market place.

It costs less everyday to create music of any genre. The digital revolution that created this controversy is what made music creation software affordable for everyone. It doesn't make sense why a cd should cost $30. Much of that money surely is taxes and advertising. If a majority of that money actually paid the artist for the ideas then this would be a different issue.

Is it possible that if the only music that was ever produced, was created by people who did it entirely out of dedication and love rather then for money, that the standard of music produced would be far superior to anything we could imagine?

At the end of the day, there is no way to ever eradicate piracy. So the music industry should just move on and try to formulate new ways to market itself in the future. For if it is going to survive in any semblance of it's current form it has to make some major changes.

QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 02:42 AM)

QUOTE (Aaron @ Sep 18 2004, 02:38 AM) QUOTE (NokturnL @ Sep 18 2004, 02:25 AM) unless the program is ridiculously priced for the average user, IE, at about $2000 for some programs?  How is that justified? for software? That's like saying "this ferrari is too expensive for the average consumer so it's ok to steal it". If software is overpriced then don't buy it, but also don't steal it... Let the competition bring the prices down if they are indeed unjustifiably high. the reason they are priced high, is because they are designed for professional companies or orginisations, intended to be kept away from the little man, so if the little man gets it, they're not really loosing out, cos the big men still buy it. So what harm is it if the little man has it, not like he's gonna do much more than just play around with the software... if the littleman however makes money out of it, then thats wrong.

I almost agree with you.

I don't completely because the little man is still benefitting from others' work, even if he isn't making money out of it. Shouldn't the little man pay for the benefit he's receiving?

QUOTE (Suni @ Sep 18 2004, 02:49 AM)

but - pirate software is a hundred times more accessible than stolen ferraris - pirate software does not come with the same ramifications at this stage, should you be caught (this is changing rapidly though isnt it?) - the risk of being caught in the first place is so much lower not that that really covers morality haha, but it sort of goes to show why piracy is seen as more "ok" by so many people its obviously morally wrong

Yeah the analogy was intended to cover only morality

QUOTE (Jiriki @ Sep 18 2004, 02:52 AM)

At the end of the day, there is no way to ever eradicate piracy. So the music industry should just move on and try to formulate new ways to market itself in the future.

We're never going to eradicate theft in general, so what we should just move on and forget about it?

QUOTE (Aaron @ Sep 18 2004, 03:03 AM)

QUOTE (Jiriki @ Sep 18 2004, 02:52 AM) At the end of the day, there is no way to ever eradicate piracy. So the music industry should just move on and try to formulate new ways to market itself in the future. We're never going to eradicate theft in general, so what we should just move on and forget about it?

If everyone has access to the information equally then it isn't theft anymore....

Just sharing of ideas.

i dont think thats what Jiriki was saying though. the industry shouldn't forget about it, but change the way they try to sell their products.
trusted computing (TC) may never get off the ground, so these companies have got to act somehow

QUOTE (Jiriki @ Sep 18 2004, 03:09 AM)

If everyone has access to the information equally then it isn't theft anymore.... Just sharing of ideas.

But many people want to be compensated for their ideas, and many people are williing to compensate those people for their ideas.. so I doubt that will ever happen...

QUOTE (Aaron @ Sep 18 2004, 02:56 AM)

little man is still benefitting from others' work, even if he isn't making money out of it. Shouldn't the little man pay for the benefit he's receiving?

Yes the end user should pay. But the problem is there is really not much of a model for this to happen so far, and in the cases where artists do sell their work directly I think there has been a really good response from fans who will actually pay money to support them. I think music piracy is good in this way, like Jiriki said... it is shaking up the estalished way of doing things and hopefully will end up making some changes for the better as well.

And maybe if there wasn't so much money to be made in music, the only people who would want to get into making it would be the ones motivated by a genuine desire to make something of quality, because they loved doing it...

i pirate things i wasnt gona buy anyway so the only affect on the owner is that their product gets promoted to my friends....is that really a bad thing?

y'arr me hearties im a pirate!

i buy all the music i enjoy though.

Are DJ Mixes a form of piracy. . .like if i download someone's mix is that illegal?

QUOTE (thecrazyg @ Sep 18 2004, 01:36 PM)

y'arr me hearties im a pirate! i buy all the music i enjoy though. Are DJ Mixes a form of piracy. . .like if i download someone's mix is that illegal?

since most djs post their mix on the net themselfs....no its not illegal

One of the names Port were considering before calling themselves the Power was the Pirates. Doesnt really matter now tho.

CARN THE POWER

QUOTE (VeLoCiTy @ Sep 18 2004, 01:38 PM)

QUOTE (thecrazyg @ Sep 18 2004, 01:36 PM) y'arr me hearties im a pirate! i buy all the music i enjoy though. Are DJ Mixes a form of piracy. . .like if i download someone's mix is that illegal? since most djs post their mix on the net themselfs....no its not illegal

i meant the tracks contained in the mix. . . like does the DJ have the right to reproduce/distribute them in mixed form?

QUOTE (VeLoCiTy @ Sep 18 2004, 01:38 PM)

QUOTE (thecrazyg @ Sep 18 2004, 01:36 PM) y'arr me hearties im a pirate! i buy all the music i enjoy though. Are DJ Mixes a form of piracy. . .like if i download someone's mix is that illegal? since most djs post their mix on the net themselfs....no its not illegal

Technically speaking I bet they are infact illegal, as the DJ probably hasnt liscenced the rights to distribute the tracks in the mix for free.

Still in reality i cant see much harm done, as this is infact promoting the tracks. But any forms of bootlegging is still considered illegal, but in most cases like this a blind eye would be turned to it as it is not making a real big loss of money cause only a part of each track and not the full track is in it.

QUOTE (drexciya @ Sep 18 2004, 02:35 PM)

but in most cases like this a blind eye would be turned to it as it is not making a real big loss of money cause only a part of each track and not the full track is in it.

but if u wanna get technical, the DJ is making money out of it (through popularity, and fame), while the honcho's who made the tracks also get stiffed out of money that people would otherwise have to buy to hear.

but hey im a pirate through and thro

QUOTE (thecrazyg @ Sep 18 2004, 01:46 PM)

QUOTE (VeLoCiTy @ Sep 18 2004, 01:38 PM) QUOTE (thecrazyg @ Sep 18 2004, 01:36 PM) y'arr me hearties im a pirate! i buy all the music i enjoy though. Are DJ Mixes a form of piracy. . .like if i download someone's mix is that illegal? since most djs post their mix on the net themselfs....no its not illegal i meant the tracks contained in the mix. . . like does the DJ have the right to reproduce/distribute them in mixed form?

provided they pay a royalty fee. using fresh92.7 for example, for every single track that they play on the air they have to pay a fee to a company called APRA (or somethng like that) then apra forwards that onto the person/company who owns the rights to the tune.

i think even clubs have to pay apra so they can have DJ's...

fresh only pay apra one week out of every year

QUOTE (Patch @ Sep 18 2004, 04:27 PM)

fresh only pay apra one week out of every year

so whats the deal with you walkin for rollers and playin whatever tunes you got in ya box? do you have/spose to pay apra or whatever?